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the delusion that, well, we've gone far enough, because the problems of deteriorated housing, slums, and inferior education, economic disparities are still very real problems, in spite of the civil rights successes of the Sixties.

And then, of course, there's the drug problem too.

Oh, yes, it's a problem.

There's always been a drug problem, but would you say it's more extensive the way maybe just drunkenness was some years ago, but now it's the hard stuff?

Yes. Oh, the problems are there. And so are the politics there. At this stage in my life I do not expect to see any positive resurgence toward democracy and equity in the area of race, before my death. I really don't. I hope that I'm over-reacting. I hope that there are positive things that I am not giving sufficient weight to it. The only positive thing that I see I don't think is sufficient to counter the negatives, and that's the so-called political developments, or the developments among black politicians.

We've made some references to the black office holders. Let's come to the Congress, and particularly mainly the House of Representatives. Now what about the Black Caucus as a force?