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caught on to that. She had long talks with Johnny Gilchrist and prepared Johnny Gilchrist's mind for certain ideas. It was very interesting to see her operate. I think it was all useful and I don't think she ever overpowered Al, because he was a very strong character.

As to whether he was aware of all this, I would have to say yes or no. He knew she was invaluable to him, and he said so to Governor Roosevelt. He said that she had been invaluable to him and would be invaluable to Roosevelt. I don't think he ever recognized the methods by which she did these things. They were not low methods. They were all right.

Eleanor Roosevelt had noticed this and Eleanor Roosevelt knew that Franklin Roosevelt did not have some of the peculiar types of strength that Al Smith had. He was, in a way, a character that could be manipulated. He wasn't malleable. That is, if you went to hammering on him, he didn't respond to hammering. You couldn't say, “You do this, or else.” That ruined it. Everything was over if you said that to Roosevelt; but he was rather easily manipulated. He was not a suspicious person. If eight or ten people gave him a good line of talk and a bit of advice that all happened to be just the same, he'd begin to think that he'd heard that from the populace generally and that that was the public idea. He was simple about that and easy about things like