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he set out to set up a series of principles and ideas to which the Board members could be sold and then hold them to it, holding them particularly to this idea that it was not the business of the Secretary of Labor or the President of the United States what they did. They had a mission and were endowed by Congress with this particular right.

I think that they sold that to Wagner. In fact, I know that Wagner supported them in the idea, because he came to see me, to labor with me after I had tried to labor with Madden and Edwin Smith about modifying some of their rules. Wagner said, “Really, you should-n't be doing this.”

I said, “I'm not doing it on my own, as it's no function of the Secretary of Labor, but as the Secretary of Labor in the President's Cabinet it's my duty to assist him in every operation that in any way touches upon labor matters or labor problems. Therefore it's my duty to convey to Madden and the Board this idea of the President's.”

“But the President shouldn't have any such ideas.” Wagner even said that to me. “He shouldn't think about this. This is a judicial matter.”