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to have gone anyhow.”

Before that Hull had always been very fond of Sumner, although, of course, there was a slight indication of jealousy every once in a while. It was only that Sumner was a younger man and could get around more. There was still very good feeling between them and I don't think Hull ever had any feeling that Sumner was disloyal to him. Welles was always very careful not to take anything but the second place. Welles was a most correct man in his understanding of the exact relationship between a secretary and an undersecretary with regard to the President. But what could he do? If the President asked him for information which he hadn't gotten from the Secretary, what was he to do? Clam up? You can't do that. I've never blamed Welles at all for what he did. I think he gave a great deal of help to the President and in matters where Mr. Hull was perhaps not reporting completely and perhaps didn't understand the subtleties that the President wanted illuminated for him. Welles, having been in the Foreign Service, didn't take information second-hand. Secretary Hull wasn't a Foreign Service man. He was a Senator and Congressman. Whatever he knew about the Foreign Service, or its problems, or the way they handled