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was conspiring for membership. They didn't care how they got it. They kept raiding in what was supposed to be a settled trade or a settled factory. You had to try to persuade them to give that up. That was a running fight.

Hillman was sometimes pretty good at that. He laid the law down. He was a very stern taskmaster when it came to that. You got a lot of growling and grumbling. They would come to the Secretary of Labor about it. On the other hand, sometimes Hillman was very drastic about saying, “The AF of L may say that shop belongs to them, but they've got no business in there anyhow. That's our industry. Go ahead. Take it.” There was no principle there. He was a very competent operator within a union program. That was how he was so successful in the organization of his union, establishing it in various cities. He always turned everything to the advantage of the union itself.

At any rate, there was this general advisory commission. I tried not to discuss it too much with other members of the Cabinet. I know I discussed it with Wickard once or twice. He sat beside me in Cabinet meeting, and that in itself gives you a kind of intimate basis of acquaintanceship that you don't have with somebody who sits at the other end of the table. I know that I told him it was pest to me, that