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me only because he knew me and was accustomed to dealing with me. He supposed that we were handling all these matters of strikes, and that if anybody had promised them that they'd get something if they settled a strike, it was us. I had to say to him, “You know we can't do that. We never did it. We told them how to settle the strike many times. You'd better go and see Knudsen.”

He went over and saw Knudsen. I wasn't present at the conference, but Lubin, I think, told me afterwards that Hill-man laid the law down. He said he had a grave responsibility to keep men at work. These were very serious times. The defense program was in danger. His duty was to keep men at work, and that was what he proposed to do. The Navy could just as well have their goods made in one place as another. He had ascertained that there was nothing the matter with the firm. They were able to produce. They knew how to make the goods that they were bidding on. He regarded it as an entirely legitimate thing to do, the right thing to do, the proper thing to do. You gave the orders to the people who would cooperate, cooperate in keeping the men at work, keeping the men satisfied. The labor force was important.

Well, of course, it is important. There was something to be said for his point of view. But it's not what a