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That is really true. I remember saying to Harry, “They don't think they're second-class. They know they're first-class.” It isn't going to make them feel any better to have some of their members sitting around Washington doing more or less useless things. They'll know they're useless before they get through, if they're bright at all.” For instance, a man like Martin Durkin knew it was useless, and he cleared out and went back to Illinois where he was of some consequence, where he could do something that was important.

But Hopkins had this feeling that you had to involve labor at every level or they would not be satisfied. His fear was that they would desert us in the middle of the program, in the middle of the defense program. Of course, if Harry had put it up to the labor leaders by saying, “Would you like a man in at every level?” they would all say, “Yes, that will be fine.” But I don't think any one of them went to him with the idea in mind, except possibly Hillman, but, as I've said, Hillman was by no means representative of the labor movement, either actually representative or emotionally and psychologically representative of it.

I think it was Hopkins' idea, which he easily sold to the President, that labor should be just as much involved as industry was, and that you should keep labor with you. Now, there's a good deal to be said for that, because when there