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not do it, because I know you'll be flying back to New York for board meetings and I'll be here with the contractors, trying to finish the house.” George Gallup and his wife had a retirement place in Switzerland that we visited, and they were eager to have us come over and live in an area where they were. I was more inclined to go in the area of Zurich. Geneva was probably the most sensible thing, because it was sort of the crossroads of the world, and with all the international conferences and everything in Geneva, you had interesting people to be with. We had grown to know people there because I was vice-president of the international organization [Red Cross] in Geneva, and we were over there frequently in connection with that. So she knew the city and knew a lot of people there, but she also was right that I would probably have had lingering commitments to things going on back here, and I couldn't be in two places simultaneously. And while she would have traveled with me, because that was a period when I was still on the board of Pan Am, or when Pan Am still existed, and we could travel worldwide (she had a pass where she could go anyplace and so did I), I think she wanted a quieter life, and that wouldn't have worked.

But, in a sense, I didn't give her as much time as I think I should have given her--or given us, really, it wasn't given to her. In a sense, part of that is due to the family life she had known as a child. Her father was a regular husband in the sense that he came home every day at the same time. He worked five days a week, did a lot of things on his own but all that was at his home, either in the country where they had a farm, when she grew up as a young child, or in the city. I never knew a regular life, in that sense.

No, you were working hard at the department store when you were quite young.

Yes.