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And it was institutionalized through the mechanics of the apprenticeship system was it not?

Like many others.

The craft unions. Do you recall A. Philip Randolph going to quite a distance publicly to say that he did not consider George Meany a racist?

I don't recall his going a distance to put it that way. I just recall that he never called George Meany a racist.

Did A. Philip Randolph ever discuss with you, in a comparative way, his relationships with George Meany on the one hand and Walter Reuther on the other?

When you discuss do you mean did we have the same kind of discussion that I described to you about the march on Washington?

Yes.

No, we didn't have that kind? But I again know by general conversation and communication without it taking the form of discussion, that he had respect for Reuther. He considered Reuther an ally. But almost everyone who looked at the American labor movement during that period had that opinion. And certainly, the U.A.W. was an example, maybe the best example, of a strong labor