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practise of not communicating with the P.L.O. I never understood that because certainly they are a force or a factor in the Middle East. Kissinger, I guess, initiated that. But it didn't seem to me to make sense in terms of our interests. I mean American interests.

Have you talked to Andy Young about that resignation? Did you ever talk to him since it occurred?

Sure, many times. In fact, I was with him during the period before he resigned, and it was clear that he was going to. I was with him the day that he announced the resignation. A few of us went up to his office. It was a sad day.

Do you feel he felt particularly sad?

Oh yes. No question about it.

He wasn't just accepting it as something that was going to happen sooner or later?

No, it was a sad day. His public stance was one of dignity, whatnot, but inside he was sad. It was unjust, and he knew that.

Do you think he felt hurt by what Carter did? Carter had defended him frequently during his tenure.

I think he felt that it was the pressure on Carter made that