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story with an open letter from Carmine DeSapio. It talks about his victory in the courts and how his opponent -- that's me -- had opened up the graves to vote people. It was just an awful, awful statement -- he saying that I had committed election fraud. It was just an outrage.

I tell that story simply because that Friday (the Villager comes out on Thursday) he and I are taping a show for Sunday. He gets the first 15 minutes, I get the second 15 minutes. Gabe Pressman was on this show. And I'm at the studio, and I'm there with a good friend, Leonard Sandler, who's now a judge. Carmine walks in. Leonard knows Carmine, because Leonard's father, now deceased, was a judge and they were very close and he knew Leonard as a little boy, and Leonard's a very good friend of mine. Carmine comes over: “Hi, Leonard, how are you? How's your father?” Leonard: “Fine.” Carmine to me: “Hi, Ed, how are you?” and holds out his hand. And I say, “You can't call me a crook on Thursday and shake my hand on Friday. What the hell do you think this is, a ball game?” and I walked away from him. This was on the front page of the New York Times, this incident: “Koch refuses to shake hands with DeSapio.”

Anyway he goes out on his first 15-minute segment of the television program -- I remember viewing it then and also on the Sunday following -- and he says: “Something happened to me a few moments ago that is so un-American -- I never had anything like