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somebody like Senator M had, a man like MacMurray, “I think his name was,” Who gave M all his information, and the reason we got housing before was because this staff man was so terribly good and answered everything.” We said to Johnson, “Well, where is he now?” and he said, “I don't know where he is now.” We said, “We'll try to find him, try to get him for you,” and we found that this man was the head of the Housing Authority of New York State and we paid him to become a consultant to Johnson. Johnson loaned him to Sparkman and with MacMurray's determination and Johnson's determination and Sparkman's determination, a section of the housing bill which was vetoed twice under Eisenhower because of this section was passed in '59. And I doubt that it would have been passed without MacMurray, and if I hadn't hired MacMurray it probably wouldn't have been passed. And it was passed because Johnson wanted this section and he wanted staff help, to see that someone who understood housing legislation was there to cope with the technicalities of it. Well, that's one thing he interested me in.

Your altruism in this, the reaching out and finding of MacMurray is something that certainly...

I don't really know if Johnson remembers this. He'd remember if we talked about it, but I think Johnson feels that I am altruistic and extraordinary but, largely, I think he thinks I'm sympathetic to him. He feels in sympathy with me actually, or that I'm in sympathy with him, and it's partly because his family comes from the north of Ireland, Protestant North Irish, and they