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jokes and had made him less admired by some people than he previously had been. That was that he had allowed himself to become an officer of the National Civic Federation. The National Civic Federation was an organization which to this day I don't quite know what it was. They had a lot of good, high-minded type of employers in it. People like Anne Morgan had founded it. I don't remember who the others were. Ralph Easley was the general secretary and spokesman. They were always showing pictures about good employers, good physical conditions and good factories with gardens around them. The question was being raised, “Would you rather have a little paternalism or some wages?” That was the question thrown at the Civic Federation - “You show us all these pictures of gardens around factories, but what are the wages? What do the women get for wages there? Do you have any children working there? What do they do?” It was regarded as reactionary by many people and yet by others it was regarded as a move in the right direction - in the direction of improving working conditions by persuasion and good example. There was an element of both in it.

There had been a very few labor men in the thing. There was always an effort on their part to get labor men in. Matthew Woll was I think a member of their executive committee from the beginning almost, or early. Anyhow they