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trade unionist. That's the way he affected me. I paid very little attention to him on the occasions that I met him. I was much more interested in Tim Healy, Monte McHugh of the plumbers, John Sullivan and any of the others. They were much more realistic. Eddie Rybicki of the printers was another one I had a high regard for. You got much of a sense of the working man from them. I always felt that Matthew Woll had spats on. I don't think I ever saw him with spats. My eye doesn't show me him with spats. But I always felt that he had spats on. He walked around that way. He sometimes carried a walking stick and gave himself a good many airs.

I met him during this period, but I don't remember ever having anything to say to him particularly except as you met here and there. I was after all in the Labor Department and was anxious to see every labor leader. I don't remember ever talking with him at length. When I came to Washington he seemed like a familiar figure, because the great mass of labor men who had emanated from the West I had not met in New York State and he was somebody I did know.

As a child I remember Eugene V. Debs leading the Pullman strike. I remember the name. I remember it I suppose because my father was explosively angry about the railroad strike. He thought it was just terrible, just dreadful!