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“I was out with Debs and what's more I was arrested and went to jail with Debs right there in Chicago. I spent two days in jail. I was a red hot labor man and I was a red hot striker.”

I said, “How did you ever get out of that?”

“Oh, well,” he said, “the strike was over and we won. I went on in the railroad business. I was more interested in the mechanical end of it than I was in driving an engine. I got into the shops. I was a good shopworker. That's where I learned my trade. I'm a first-class machinist so I could make them. So I went and made them.”

I said, “Now you're on the other side of the fence.”

He said, “You bet I am, but I know what makes men strike. I know all about it.”

He knew a good deal more about it than most of them did - a great deal more. If he hadn't been so afraid of his competitors, he would have cracked the first automobile strike. In fact, I think he probably did.

When Debs was arrested during the war, I remember a story, probably printed in the New York Times, about his being such a good prisoner that the warden hated to have him go when his term was up. He was such a good influence.

I didn't know Norman Thomas back in this period, though I have met him. I don't think he turned up in New York