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any interest in politics as such. It wasn't in the picture to be interested in politics. The unions weren't organized completely. It was not in the tradition of this country for the unions and the labor people to have any particular political position. The Knights of Labor which was the indigenous, spontaneous organization of working people in this country was ruined - completely ruined, wrecked and finished - by political activity and political action, and by trying to be of political influence. I think they ought to remember that now. That, of course, had a great influence on the thinking not only of Gompers, but of all the fundamental people in the AF of L, who when the Knights of Labor fell to pieces, had come together, gathered themselves into trades and said, “All right, we'll have the trade unions. We have a skilled trade and we'll work for that. That big dream of Terence Powderly is crazy.”

I've had many an old labor man lay it down to me why it was so crazy and why it was so wrong. I do think there's something in it. They might easily overreach themselves right now (1952) if they follow fellows like Walter Reuther, who can only think in terms of politics and who is not a trade unionist. They might easily do that. The membership of all unions is falling off everywhere. I