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call realistic politics at that time.

Thinking it over, I'm sure that Dubinsky was a Socialist. I'll tell you how I know. When they started the American Labor party in New York State and they nominated Franklin Roosevelt for President and Lehman was the candidate for Governor on the Democratic ticket, I said to him, “Dubinsky, what on earth did you do that for? Why did you start another part and call it the American Labor party? That's crazy.”

He said, “Well, I'm supporting the Democrats.”

I said, “But why don't you support the Democratic ticket and not have all this fancy business.”

“Why,” he said, “our people are all Socialists. I've taught them for years to vote under the Socialist symbol. I can never teach them to vote under the Democratic star. We've been warning them for years to never vote for Tammany Hall. ‘Never vote for Tammany Hall. Tammany Hall is against the working man. Never vote under the star.' Now I can't teach them to vote under the star all of a sudden. I've got to have them vote under something that's got labor in it. They think that's the same thing.”

That was it. He then said that practically the whole leadership of the garment workers had been Socialists. That didn't hurt him any. But in the early years they never had