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She was one of the great promoters of Sidney Hillman, for instance, and probably had more to do, by her subtle promoting of him, in bringing him to a position of influence in the unions than almost anybody else. She certainly had more to do with that than his own crowd did. She brought him into a position of significance in the community outside of the unions. She was really very energetic. She took him up when he was an unknown person.

She was always very ambitious for her favorites. I suppose it was an exaggerated maternalism. She took up both men and women. Whoever she started out to help, she continued to help. She had a desire to help people. It was based on that desire, and then she did what so many dominating mothers do. They conceive what will be the good life or the good opportunity for that person and then they wangle to get that for them. Whether the individual himself has ever actually arrived at that conclusion or not is another matter. I think she did similar things for other people.

She died before Smith. He died in '44 and I think she died after he came out for Wendell Willkie in '40. Perhaps it was in '41 or '42. Their relationship was never broken. He relied on her very much. She went along very much with his later Republicanism. I think she probably needled him into this position. Al was a real Democrat. He