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With the President. Mr. White told me that and he said that no substitutes went. If Doak was out of town or away, no substitute was desired or asked. On the few occasions when they did have the whole Cabinet together no substitute was ever permitted to go. So he, White, never had any opportunity to tell the President anything - at least, that was his story to me and I assume that it was true.

He said that he had told some people that he doubted the wisdom of this. He told some of the members of the Congress that he did, but it never did any good. They always appropriated the money right away because Doak went up and told them bedside stories about the horrors that he was discovering. They discovered horrors, or at least so they said. When I saw the cases that they had deported, they didn't look to me like horrors. There was an occasional person that they ran down that probably should have been deported, but, of course, we had a regular immigration service inspectors' service with inspectors and investigators and its was their duty to do this. These people in Section 24 were just a bunch of crooks added to the Department entirely outside of the Immigration Service doing the work that the Immigration Service was supposed to do.

The Immigration Service morale was terrible. It was shot to pieces. There were decent people in there, men like