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I always have thought that it would be better. But now that I face it and see it I begin to realize that of course they are much stronger when they are all in the same union, aren't they?”

I said, “Well, possibly, but you must remember all that talk that went on in '33 and '34. All you employers talked about the vertical unions. That put ideas in these men's heads. They think that's what you want.”

“Well, so we do, from one point of view, it's much better, but I do see that they're stronger. I think you told me that once even, that it would be an increase in strength if they ever got around to having industrial unions or vertical unions.”

I said, “Well, except in the big mass production industries, it doesn't make any difference. Anyhow, you have to deal with things as they are.”

Well, he realized that. Anyhow, we left it on that note. During this conversation he said to me that what was done in General Motors, and the way they settled it in General Motors, would be very important in deciding just what kind of agreements would be made in some of the other mass production industries, without mentioning steel. We both understood that steel would be one of