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extraordinarily different these industries are, and people who are not involved in these industries have no moral competence to make decisions within those industries, except they are scholars and students. Experts in the employ of the governments should go at it to find out all the facts in the objective way that a public official goes at it through competent investigators, as contrasted with the empirical way in which the men who work in the industry, or who build up the industry as managers, will gain their information.

That is very true, and the more you see of it the more you realize it. If you're going to have tri-partitism, for heaven's sake, let your public people control the situation, and consult only the labor and employers in that industry. Don't appoint somebody to represent industry in general and somebody else to represent labor in general. Hugh Frayne was no more able to represent labor than a farmer would have been. He was a member of the War Industries Board in the First World War—a nice fellow, but a plumber by trade. The farthest his knowledge ever went was the building trades, and you don't get those problems much in wartime. The main problems are problems of the manufacturing enterprises. He, like Bill Collins. Hated machinery of all kinds. Bill Collins was the man sent out to organize the automobile workers in General Motors, and he just hated machinery.