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alleged, but there was nobody ever could make out why he did. I mean, the labor men couldn't make out why he took this trouble.

Did you ever talk to Phil Murray about it?

Well, yes and no. Murray was a very secretive person, you know. He told you less than Lewis told you. But he did say that he thought that had something to do with it. Also, of course, the politics of the labor movement had something to do with it, and the President's greater reliance on Sidney Hillman. That is, his apparent greater reliance on Sidney Hillman. It was already apparent, you see. That soured Lewis terribly. That made him furious.

Lewis was very anti-Semitic. He came to my office one day and, in the course of conversation--this was earlier-- he warned me against Sidney Hillman. He said, “You want to look out for that fellow Hillman. He's determined to be the big Jew in the labor movement. He's going to be the big Jew. Bernie Baruch is the big Jew in money. Herbert Lehman is the big Jew in politics. Somebody else is the big Jew in medicine. He's going to be the big Jew in labor. There has to be a big Jew, you know, everywhere, in their idea. There has to be a big Jew in every department of life, and Hillman is determined to be the big Jew of the labor movement, and I'm equally determined that he shall not be. I'd even rather