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because he took Lee Pressman into the C.I.O. as an aid to himself. When he was first forming C.I.O., certainly he was the prime mover in that whole C.I.O. thing. He pulled Hillman. Hillman certainly played up to him, to get him to come along. I've never been sure whether the plot was Hillman's or Lewis's. I think the plot part of it, the thinking of it out, was Hillman's--the separating off from the A.F. of L.

Do you?

Oh, yes,

I found nothing to indicate that it was anybody but Lewis.

Oh well, you're wrong. Hillman was restive from the time he was taken into the A.F. of L. You remember, Hillman was not in the A.F. of L. when we came here. It was due to my intercession, really, that they took him into the A.F. of L. I talked to him about it, and so forth. I suggested it and I pushed it, and I got two or three other people to push it, you know, urging them to do it. Because Hillman's difficulty was with this fellow Rickard who had this union labor thing, and he would not consent to have that “crooked union labor” put on his clothes, the things that he made.

Well, they ironed that out and took Hillman in. But Hillman, although coming in and serving on committees with them in the N.R.A., was very critical of them, and would say to