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Stokes--whom I just saw last week--were the leaders in that. I had not had the kind of relationship with Dorothy that I've been describing in terms of my relationship with Whitney and Martin, although I've known her so much longer. Do I like Dorothy? Yes. Dorothy has spent most of her time and energy, I think, on the National Council of Negro Women. But I have not discussed things. I don't know whether this is sexist or not, or whether maybe because Dorothy and I never--for example, I don't think Dorothy's ever visited me here. Most of the time I meet Dorothy at public occasions. But I've visited Whitney in his office, and he's been here and Martin. It's strange. In terms of how long I've known her. And if Dorothy asks me to do something, I almost invariably will.

Let me come to Eleanor Holmes Norton, who was a White House appointee for a while, under Carter. How would you evaluate her work in civil rights?

Eleanor has an excellent mind. She is very practical too--not at the expense of basic values. Eleanor is a civil libertarian. She came out of the New York Civil Liberties Union, where she defended Wallace's right to speak at, I think it was Shea Stadium. Eleanor strongly believes that the struggle for racial justice has to be realistic enough to be sensitive to the need for alliances. Do I respect Eleanor? Yes. I respect her, although I'm not always in agreement with her. What do I respect about her? I respect her mind; I respect her basic values. She is not the same as Bayard, who believes in alliances. I think that she is more likely