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to be influential, or seek to influence her allies, than have her allies influence her. Although it may be give and take. That's all I can say about Eleanor. I respect her. She has courage. She certainly speaks her mind when she disagrees with some of the leaders.

Did you know [Patricia] Pat Harris?

Yes, I did know Pat.

What can you say about her, especially as a cabinet secretary and a candidate for mayor of Washington D.C.?

I think that was a mistake. [inaudible] Obviously Pat had the confidence of the Carter administration. I think the most memorable thing about Pat was when she was before the Senate committee for confirmation. I think it was [Senator William] Proxmire who said something to the effect that she didn't understand the rest of the people, and she told him about her background--working-class family. Totally unabashed, unashamed. A very attractive woman. Practical in the sense of not permitting her role and responsibility as a cabinet member to be disturbed by any Adam Powell type approach to racial justice. And at the same, not giving it up. I remember once the New York Times had a group of us in, a number of years ago. Pat was on a number of corporate boards before she had to give them up. The New York Times had some of us in to discuss the role of--and they published excerpts of it--of blacks