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in corporate board roles. Pat was discussing it in a way which I thought was unnecessarily defensive and apologetic. I remember saying, “Look, other ethnic groups moved up in the economy of our society. Some of them were invited to boards and whatnot. They didn't have to apologize for that. Why are you?” She said to me, “Kenneth, you're right.” I think you ought to look that up. At times, to me, Pat seemed in some of our meetings or seminars to be putting more emphasis on sexism than racism. But again, that might be my distortion.

That brings me to a quote from Shirley Chisholm, who once said--

I know, I know. My personal opinion of that is that Shirley is living in another society, at least psychologically.

I should put this quote in so the transcript shows what we're talking about. She says, “I'm a black and I'm a woman and believe me, it's worse to be a woman.”

My wife and I laughed at that when we read that. We said, “My gosh, Shirley has a ride apparently, in terms of American racism, if she really believes that.” It certainly was a remarkable quote, and got her a great deal of attention. And maybe that's what a political figure really is nourished on. But my wife and I laughed at it.

Did you know her very well?