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I think she was just tired, tired of all the arguments and maybe tired of--she was a loner in many ways, even in terms of the Black Caucus. She was not an integral part of it. A number of the black females in Congress seemed to be more a part of the Black Caucus process than Shirley. She is an individualist, much more of a loner.

Do you know Barbara Jordan?

I will not discuss Barbara Jordan at any length, except to tell you that I didn't like her. I think that she had a voice, but not much more. I won't even tell you why. Yes I will. Barbara Jordan tried to get me to retreat on my position on integrated schools, under the guise that this was impractical. I have never respected her since.

Did she explain why she thought it was impractical.

Yes. They were trying to get some sort of bill through Congress at the time. She brought Udall and a couple of other congressmen to the Airlie House, and was trying to get Andy Young, who was in Congress at the time, to join her. I stayed up all night with Andy, effectively telling him he couldn't do this. But she was persistent. She said it was practical politics that she was concerned with. I don't even remember what the bill was about. It had something to do with the Federal government in education. She felt that integration would interfere with this. I think it was a