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New York Times editorially to become involved in the thing, in terms of virtually calling for an endorsement of Georgiana Johnson.

How was that accomplished?

The Daily News, I always had a relationship with Bob Laird, who's on the editorial board. This was even during the strike, I used to talk to him and they had editorials on it then, and after the strike, exposing the contract. On this thing I went to him and I would draft elaborate memos with facts -- factual, you know, questions, answers, questions, answers -- so that he could stand up on things. By this time there was a new editor of the News, Mike Pakenham. He had to convince the new editors that they should pay attention to it. I remember I went to him in terms of the scandals had broken, and everything had broken, and “Isn't it time for you to do something?” And he said, “Look” -- he never would promise. Then, I remember one day I called him up and I said, “You got to do it. You got to do it.” The next morning a story broke on the thing -- I think it was another development at the high level -- and I called him up and I said, “Bob, you got to do it. Did you see the story in the paper today?” He said, “Did you see my editorial?” I said, “No! You got it?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Forgive me, forgive me, forgive me.” I went, and I picked up the editorial. I called him up and said, “Bless you, Bob.”

Anyway, at the same time -- there is a guy on the Times editorial board, Dave, what's his name. He's the assistant to Jack Rosenthal. David Unger, whom I've known for a long time. He's a friend of Eric's. We often had conversations on issues and subjects, and I remember discussing with him the strike settlement. One time, as a result of my conversation with him, when the Times did an editorial on the strike settlement the person who was writing the editorial called me to check certain things. It wasn't an editorial I was particularly pleased with, but they were trying to help the hospitals more than anybody else at that time -- and they were happy that the strike was over! [laughs] [telephone rings; tape stops and starts] I talked to David Unger about it, and he said Don Wyclif is the guy who would handle a thing like this. He's a black man. He said, “He's a decent guy. You ought to talk to him.” So I called Serrin, and I said, “Don Wyclif.” He says, “Don Wyclif? Oh God. He wrote that editorial on P9. So,” he says, “I don't know.”

So I call Don Wyclif, and I talk to him. He said, “Yes, I'm interested.” He asked questions. He says, “Can you send me material?” I sent him material. You know, I hock him every day or two, usually twice a day. I call Dave Unger on the weekend, and Dave Unger says to me, “Moe,