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Carol and he were the major leaders in the club with Dick Kuh and Charlie McGuinness. Those were the major people. I suspect (I was not in the club in '57 when Herman ran for district leader) that they couldn't get anybody else willing to run, and then he ran a second time but for state committee in '58, and I wasn't there either when they selected him, and then in '59 Charles McGuinness ran.

Herman did get elected to the state committee -- is that right?

No.

He was defeated for that office?

Sure.

Okay. Now on Charlie McGuinness -- he's got a good Irish name, right?

Yes, he had a good Irish name.

But he's a Protestant.

I hadn't even thought about that.